Marcus and Karen Hilton, MBE* - Part 2
from England
Part 1
Part 3
Henry in his favourite
outfit - Alladin!
Dancesportinfo: In many countries, not in England, Amateurs
are allowed to teach. I have seen good Professionals teaching the beginners,
wouldn't it be better if Amateurs earned some money teaching the beginners and
then spent money on lessons with top Professionals. England is very strict with
Amateurs teaching...
Marcus: I think it has changed recently, there is the Amateur Teaching
program set up, so Amateurs can actually teach within a dance school when it is
superwised. So our top Amateurs do teach. They can do shows as well, which is
great. It's a new development, the last few years.
Karen: There are some Amateurs who teach some of their counterparts in
other countries, they are really full time Professionals, not amateurs, but it
suits them to dance as an Amateur because they are better supported by their
own organisations.
Marcus: Don't forget that in the IDSF situation they are not called
Amateurs they are called Dancesport dancers. It's not an Amateur world, the
word Amateur is not even mentioned. You have the IDSF World Standard
championships, not Amateur World Standard. So the word Amateur is not
regarded as an important word in the IDSF organisation, it's not in the name.
Maybe it's right, maybe there is no Amateur world, like in tennis. You have
a hobby players, these are real amateurs, but it's a different level. But
it's a dangerous situation...
Karen: Yes, it creates a dangerous situation. You have lots of social
teachers in England, if you allowed young Amateurs to teach their classes, they
would lose their business. From our point of view, we teach a lot of top
couples, but we also teach some Junior couples, some Senior and they are also
important to us. They are good couples, and a pleasure to teach, however on
different level.
"There are some Amateurs [...] they are really full time
Professionals, not amateurs, but it suits them to dance as an Amateur because
they are better supported by their own organisations"
Marcus: It is a good lesson for us to teach people on
different levels. We didn't have the chance of teaching and earning money as
Amateurs. We found it hard, because even then in the 90s, 80s and late 70s
we competed against Norwegians, Germans, etc. who were all teaching and
earning money. It made us stronger in a way!
Karen: We used to win a television set every weekend, or a painting.
Marcus: [both laughing] Yes, we did. Not that we wanted things
like that!
Karen: The family got gifts of TVs, every one of them! It made you
stronger, but there is line when you also have to be able to support yourself.
Dancesportinfo: Do you think you can be a real Amateur
and still achieve such a high level in dancing?
Karen: Now? I don't think anybody does anyway. I think the question is
not there... I think all Amateurs at some point earn money somehow now. So
there aren't any true Amateurs.
Dancesportinfo: Can you imagine anyone working 9 till 5
somewhere and then go and practice dancing for another 6 hours?
Marcus: No.
Karen: No, but we did. We were lucky. I worked for my father which
sounds lucky. Well, he had a warehousing business and he was the boss, we
opened up the warehouse at 7 in the morning so I was up at 6.15am. The first
person to arrive, in a small business, is the boss and the last person to leave
is the boss. If the cleaner didn't turn out the boss's daughter went and clean
the toilets! So although I could have time off to go off to wherever, for
competitions and to do things, it was really hard. If I was on a switchboard
and it wasn't terribly busy, we were waiting for the delivery to arrive; I
would take my sequins and stitch my dresses there, in the office. So it
wasn't easy. And then we would go straight home, have my dinner which my Mum
had ready for us and straight up to Manchester to meet Marcus. Not easy...
Dancesportinfo: We've noticed a big difference between the
style of dancing of Amateurs and Professionals. Especially in Latin it's more
visible. The Latin Amateur couples behave on the floor differently to
Professionals. It looks more sporty in a way, while Professionals are more
showy. Do you know why?
Alladin having fun with
Mum and Dad Marcus: I think it is more of a whole
Amateur or Professional image. From our own point of view, when we turned
Professional everything seemed so much easier. Maybe not easier, maybe slower
motion... You had more time to do things; you had more space to do things. In
Amateurs it was really cut and thrust, you know, you just had to do what you
could as often as you could. Amateurs always create a look of urgency to me.
They urgently want to make an image, present themselves or to make an impact.
Professionals seem to just let it happen. Well, it depends on the qualities...
It's confidence, maturity. Having said that, lets take the recent addition to
the Professional Standard, Mirco Gozzoli, who went from Amateur finals straight
to Professional finals. Thankfully he had time to develop his maturity,
confidence, he came in at the correct time. It's all about timing, isn't it?
"Amateurs
always create a look of urgency to me. They urgently want to make an image,
present themselves or to make an impact. Professionals seem to just let it
happen"
Karen: He's done his apprenticeship as a young dancer. He is an
exception to the rule. Saying that, Mirco was struggling to hold on to his
Amateur Standard title a year ago, between him and Domenico [Soale] they had
several competitions where he really struggled. And a lot of people thought
that perhaps, he shouldn't win certain competitions. And he's over that, now
he's got a new found confidence and he is absolutely marvellous. But the
technique has already been developed. They danced from the early, early age...
Marcus
: I still think he has to get over his tag of being a latest Amateur turned
Professional. Because sometimes he can look the best on the floor but other
times, you think, oh yes, I still can see that Amateur look in him...
Karen: He's just like a puppy dog [laughing] .
Marcus: Until he loses that label, if you like...
Karen: But that's experience and maturity.
Marcus: In Latin it's slightly different...
Karen: They seem to work out so much at the gym that it becomes another
reproduction of that gym performance, out on the floor. Whereas the
Professionals probably don't do that quite so much!
Marcus : Maybe that emphasis on sport, on energy as opposed to the
artistic beauty, of a look - I think that is the major difference I can see
between the Pros and the Amateurs, in Latin anyway. The same point in
Ballroom, but I see it more in Latin.
Dancesportinfo: From a photographer's point of view I can
say it is so much easier to take a good photo of a Professional couple than
Amateur. In Pro when they do a pose it lasts! They wait for a picture [laughing]
"that artistry is born, you can't teach it. You can bend
it, and nurture it but you have to be born with it. And that instinct with
music, it's natural"
Karen : OK, they are used to
doing shows, the top couples now are used to fronting things to an audience and
holding them. You as a photographer, I am sure you're aware of the music
building up to a phrase and those top boys will listen to the music and stretch
every movement out to finish with the music. So if you're aware of that, even
in the background, you both will be in the same point in music to take a
photograph! And nowadays, particularly with the work in Japan, the top pros in
Japan can do so many shows in one week so it becomes just like second
nature. And this becomes their work, as opposed to teaching.
Marcus: I think sometimes a perception of an Amateur from what I listen
and hear at lessons compared to Professionals is that they want to look
good in Amateur, they must look good, positive, etc, etc. As a Professional
they learn to understand the more easy it looks, in a positive way, the better
it looks. It's not what you do, it's how you do it. I think that is the same in
every discipline of work or life, between amateur and Professionals, it's how
you do it!
Karen: There is this great expression, that if it looks like you�re
working hard you're not working hard enough!.
Marcus: Very true. Another experience we learn is
that choreography, don't try to move the choreography, let the
choreography move you. And you look sometimes at Amateurs and it's fantastic
what they do, sometimes they want to move everything rather than letting the
choreography move them.
happy family! Karen: The top Amateurs are true Professionals,
marvellous dancers.
Marcus: The World's event in Vilnius, last weekend, was an absolutely
fantastic competition. It really was!
Dancesportinfo: I'll ask you a question I asked Donnie:
Which do you value more technique or artistry. I know you cannot separate
them...
Marcus : I think you need both. It's the mixture, it's like ingredients
of a good meal, you must make sure you have everything.
Karen: The only thing is that artistry is born, you can't teach it. You
can bend it, and nurture it but you have to be born with it. And that instinct
with music, it's natural. I do believe that you can teach technique if one is
prepared to be on the floor hour after hour after hour. But you can't teach the
flair. Yes, develop it, magnify but it's God given, the flair.
Marcus: Sometimes when I am teaching maybe not such a high level
Professional or Amateur I would lean more to the technical side of it, even if
they were artistic or not artistic, I would lean to that. To emphasise the
correct usage of the knees or the ankles, the feet, correct body position.
Whereas on a higher ranked or better Professional or Amateur, I would work the
other way round. Because sometimes the artistic movement you see, can produce
greater technique. It is like a runner, he learns to move his body before
he thinks how he's using his legs and feet. To make him faster and better he
would analyse it.
I was always told to approach every couple's lesson differently, because
no two couples are the same. But I think the technique side in our business is
sadly missed, when people are trying to rely on choreographed
movement or they forget what the underlying factor is that you still need to
look beautiful. I don't care what you say; if you don't have good technique you
don't look beautiful on the floor. Whatever you're doing it's got to look
aesthetically pleasing.
Karen: And technique will support you through, thick or thin. Technique
makes movement more economical, if you're doing it the correct way.
"Technique will support you through,
thick or thin. Technique makes movement more economical, if you're doing it the
correct way"
Dancesportinfo: Another problem I would like to talk about
is fairness in judging. Several days ago somebody wrote on our forum about you,
that you, Marcus, are the only judge whose fairness he doesn't doubt. Are you
aware that, there is a general perception that judging, in some cases at least,
is a way of providing income for the judge e.g. forcing people to take lessons
with this judge?.
Marcus: The problem is, in our situation, our artistic sport is not
a sport as such. It's not the first passed the line. It's peoples opinions. You
can never really question opinions. Whether you like the result or not, whether
you like how people judge or not, because opinions can always be changed. You
look at somebody's dancing, and you have your priorities and that may not go as
being fair to some people. When I was dancing, the people who didn't mark me
very well I thought of very unfair. But in their minds they would be totally
fair, I am sure! They would always have a reason, and that's why I never asked
them why or how, because whatever you ask they'd give you their own idea.
I love judging, but when it comes to the crunch I find it so difficult. And I
found it so difficult last weekend because you want to give them a very fair
crack of the whip and you have to have a winner, but you look at them and you
hope that they will all produce such a performance which, if you
could, you could tie them all! You can't do that you have to have a
winner. And it becomes very difficult for you to not show your feelings or your
personal preferences towards the couple while they are dancing, their style or
their technique or how many lessons they had with you, that shouldn't apply. It
should be a level playing field and the couple that produces the best
performance on the night, not just in a final, because the competition is from
the first round to the final, it's a build-up, it's a question of integrity and
responsibility.
I hope that the majority of judges judge on the face value. That's why there is
more than one judge. Because maybe some of them won't judge on the face value,
maybe they will have some other criteria but thankfully, I think, generally,
the results show a fair verdict of how the competitors perform. For the years,
of course we've been successful, so I think that the judges were fair!
[laughing] But I am sure there were millions of people who would question that.
And I think you have to be fair. And we are in a lucky situation that we teach
nearly everybody so it's, in our situation, maybe easier, because we don't have
to lean on our pockets!
Thankfully and luckily we have people coming all the time who, maybe, we don't
mark very well at the competitions or we do mark well. They understand and
respect our judgement and opinion.
Henry is back from school! Karen : They are told very
quickly if they are unhappy. Particularly from me. I had this conversation with
a couple, not an English couple, a top Senior couple, who were surprised that
one of the top English boys hadn't done so well in England. And the English
don't support them.
And I said, that's what is wrong with you, you presume if a couple is English
and dances in England they'll do well. And the German couple will do well in
Germany, and Italian in Italy. You're promoting a fixed judging system, aren't
you? The one thing we must preserve is, particularly at Blackpool and major
comps, that the correct champion wins and it's judged on their dancing.
And it doesn't matter where they come from. It's the best dancer that wins. She
was quite shocked.
You know, the judge from their country hadn't marked them quite so well, and I
said, is this necessary? People think that if some couples are part of a dance
studio they should get the top marks from the teachers from this studio. It
shouldn't work that way!
Marcus: We are taught through our lives the things to do with
dancing, from technique to artistic impression, everything you can think of.
But we were never taught how to judge. So you hope that the grounding you had
at the beginning, in your dance school, the problems, your results, good or
bad, your good judges, your bad judges, you hope that all that put together
will produce an integrity and respect. That's all we have. I am not sure about
some of the judges who've never done it... maybe they are the great judges and
they know what they're doing. But do they really know how to judge? Doesn�t
anyone know how to judge? In the end of the day it's still your opinion.
Karen: Sometimes you're given instructions, particularly at
the IDSF events, that you must not talk to any of the couples, on that day you
must not talk to their trainers, you must not watch the couples doing their
warm-up on the dance floor. And I find that a little bit insulting in that
respect, don't you Marcus? Because it questions your integrity. Is it going to
make such a difference that yesterday you were teaching them how to do it,
going through the blood, sweat and tears with the couple and today you're not
allowed to talk to them? The problem is that you're influenced all the time.
"We were never taught how to judge. So you hope that the
grounding you had at the beginning [...], your results, good or bad, your good
judges, your bad judges, you hope that all that put together produce an
integrity and respect"
Marcus: I can understand why they are doing it, but it questions your
integrity. And it is difficult to take sometimes... it's a matter of trust.
Karen: There are six couples in a final and only one is happy with
your verdict. It's devastating sometimes when you're judging the competition
and you think that couple is really dancing well today and you give the five
marks to the next round and you're delighted when they get to the final, they
are good enough to get all five marks into the final where you have to give
them five sixes. You've actually marked them all day and really appreciated
what they've done but when it gets to the final they are not the best. They are
the sixth place. And they come to you and say you were my worst judge. And you
felt like you helped them and were not appreciated [both laughing].
Marcus: That is a frightening situation
Karen: It happens at all levels, it's absolutely heart-breaking!
Henry was very excited about the
interview!!
Dancesportinfo: Conflict about WD&DSC and IDSF regarding
judging and licences. Licences for judges, exams? Should only Blackpool winners
judge Blackpool?
Marcus : It never has been a case in that respect, because you think
back to the times of Nina Hunt or Margaret Redmond - these people, never
mind won Blackpool, never even danced in Blackpool. Generally, it is a very
minority case.
Karen : They proved themselves elsewhere.
Marcus: It's up to first of all, a perimeter situation of yourself and
your umbrella, when every country should look after their own. Then it has to
be a panel or board within that country to verify if they qualify to judge.
Karen: There is already a system in place, our qualifications within our
own societies. When we've done our associate and membership exams that, I
should think, qualifies us for judging. So all the judges have got that. And
suddenly to make another tier to the system seems a little bit strange.
Marcus : I think that the system we have in England is fantastic. It's
tried and trusted for years and years. It should be maybe a leader to the other
countries and the direction we all should go.
Karen: The advice to have past champions, isn't far wrong, is it? You
can have very qualified judges who have never ever danced, and very qualified
people showing even a simple - and we've seen this in our flesh and blood - a
simple dance like Samba and doing it completely off time. And it's only two
beats! But we've seen it. But these are very highly qualified people,
technically.
Marcus: The problem between these two organisations, IDSF and WD&DSC
is, and I am involved with WD&DSC and I think it's healthy to have two
organisations, but two organisations which work towards the same goal. Or to
work against each other sometimes to push and push and to makes things happen.
But when they go different directions, problems and political games and fighting
and financial gains in the situation is a crazy world to get involved with. It
doesn't interest me at all. Because there is always going to be politics in
everything, but that should go towards something for everybody,
the Ballroom dancing or dancesport as they want to call it. It shouldn't
be two separate organisations going two separate ways. It's ridiculous. So I am
sure that with the qualities with both, IDSF and WD&DSC, they can get
together and come up with some sort of an agreement.
Karen: I don't think anyone can question a calibre of judges when they
are all past champions. If they've actually been there and done it themselves.
I think, the dancers respect that as much as anything else.
Marcus: Yes, but then you get the other side of the coin. People say,
well, you know all these past champions are all teachers and they are all in
the pockets of these couples they are judging. So they all are going to be
biased towards their own couples. You can't please everyone...
Dancesportinfo : What do you believe is a better way?
"I don't think anyone can question a calibre of
judges when they are past champions. If they've actually been there and done it
themselves"
Karen : I don't think there is an easy
answer to it.
Marcus: I have to say that WD&DSC is absolutely wonderful in what
they do. As far as we are concerned is competitors, teachers and coaches they
look after us. They are our governing body. Through our British Dance Council
here in England. And I would never think of being governed by an Amateur body
in my own country. I couldn't do that because I left that level, I've gone from
the Amateur situation to a Professional situation.
Karen: But we feel that we are supporting the Amateur body
Marcus: You look at the way the IDSF has got the Olympics issue
moving, I think it's fantastic, absolutely wonderful. But they are organised by
the non-dancers. maybe in one respect it's fantastic because they can see it
from the outside looking in, whereas WD&DSC basically is founded by dancers
for dancers.
Karen: A combination of them both could be fantastic. If someone got
them working together it would be marvellous. But it's not going to happen, is
it?
Marcus: If someone has to give up something for someone else to take up
a position... It's always a political game. Power that may be, a top of a
pile... But we all just want to dance to succeed really, don't we. We want to
be able to enjoy dancing. And I firmly believe that it will happen. We have
been through bad times and good times in the business, and it's going to get
worse to get better. They are never going to totally agree with each other,
there is always going to be problems. But it's nothing new. It's healthy
when people work together, maybe in different spheres but together towards the
common goal. A problem is, that there is no common goal at the moment, is
there?
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